All Donkeys Go To Heaven...says Pope Francis

[Catherine]

There are over a thousand hamsters waiting for me. There are snakes and lizards and birds and fish and my sweet guinea pigs. I always think about being reunited with the pets I have now. There are some special pets from my childhood that I would like to meet again.

Just the thought that I might see my beloved Koi is enough to make me cry. I lost them 15 years ago and it is still hard to think about.

I think Pope Francis must have lost a special pet along the way or he wouldn't understand so well. Choosing the name Francis clearly is a statement to the world.

I am glad I was the first to spot this and get it posted. I hope many people read this and think about it.

[Tobi]

I am very glad you did spot it Catherine. This is a huge step forward, and will touch many people, to bring them a little closer to God's Grace.

You will live in a beautiful garden with all your loved ones and do remarkable things -when you get there! I hope Misty and I -and all Misty's friends will be coming to visit you!

[Catherine]

We will have quite a reunion party.

I think admitting that animals have souls and are welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven is a big step in humanizing religion. This is an opposite from a religious expression that demands animal sacrifice.

One position is life giving, the other is death.

I can't accept that the God who created this incredible world is a God of death and cruelty. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't fit.
Since there is such a disconnect between the God of Creation and these "religious manifestations" I have to conclude they do not come from God. They are part of our primitive background and we must more past them.

Pope Francis is clearly moving forward. You see it in other things he has said.

[LPC]

In the cause of accuracy, I must correct an error in the reports of Hannah Roberts (cited in the links earlier in this thread):

The mention in the original articles of the Pope quoting St. Paul comforting a small boy whose dog had just died is not correct. The story is more accurately reported here: http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-...heaven-2014-12

It was the Pope who was comforting a small boy, not the Pope quoting St.Paul doing that! You can see a photo in the article of the Pope comforting the boy. I have written to the Vatican Press Office asking for confirmation of the exact words used by the Pope.

[Tobi]

Thank you LPC. Now this is easier to understand.

The link wouldn't direct me to the page. Instead I tried to get to the page by highlighting and right-clicking, and then it went through. I wonder if the link might be broken...? So copied it again, in case this one works better:

http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-fran...14-12?IR=T

This is quite a tricky question for theologians here.

But a fairly simple mind like my own, which has the freedom to be able to operate outside of any strictures of doctrine, and do what it likes....can easily comprehend that any living Being has an 'inner self' which passes out of the body after death, and this 'inner self' gravitates towards the conditions which it generates within itself -in a non-physical dimension.
So, although I have no proof of it and no experience of many species, it is perfectly possible, and probably very likely that even viruses and bacteria gravitate to an inner state after their physical death.
So to my view, it's not a case of either 'going to Heaven' or 'going to Hell', but millions (probably trillions) of states of Being, ranging through a huge spectrum from the most beatific, to the most crude, depending on the 'inner state' of the Being concerned, and what mostly preoccupies it, energetically-speaking.

That said, I would imagine that aligning one's desires with high ideals, such as unconditional love, compassion, etc will surely create a more harmonious inner state, which will be carried over into the hereafter. Hence the idea that 'if you're good, you go to Heaven'.

I also feel quite sure that even in that non-physical dimension, there will still be the opportunity for development if desired, and that nothing is -even there -completely final.

But of course, I cannot say what happens to all species, as I haven't seen and known that yet. And the limited things I do already know are merely anecdotal evidence for anyone else.

It all is a great mystery still.

I am very much looking forward to hearing those exact words if/when you receive them from the Vatican, LPC.

[Catherine]

Quote:It was the Pope who was comforting a small boy, not the Pope quoting St.Paul doing that! You can see a photo in the article of the Pope comforting the boy. I have written to the Vatican Press Office asking for confirmation of the exact words used by the Pope.

Why didn't I think of that. What would we do without you LPC.

It does make sense that Pope Francis comforted the child. It doesn't mean St. Paul never said or did anything like that, but that kind of interaction was never recorded.

Nothing is said in scripture that excludes animals. Since the writings are addressed to humans the issue of animals did not come up.

There is also no mention of evolution(which Pope Francis has just declared valid) or hockey or cars or a great many things. It is a mistake to reject something because the Bible does not discuss it. I think it is a mistake to stretch some passage to cover a topic it was not meant to cover.

This is such a big subject, but Pope Francis has opened up a lot of big topics lately. The Pope was speaking personally so it is not an official declaration of the Church. Maybe some day it will be. Just having him say it has opened up the subject. It will be debated for years.

Tobi your ideas make a lot of sense. We do not have direct proof of what actually happens after death, but I don't accept that we cease to be or that our animal friends cease to be.

I think Heaven is more complex than most people picture it. It would definitely be a different state of being. Does all life end up there in that altered state? Ebola?
Would Ebola be so deadly a virus if we had not opened up the bush meat trade and started eating monkeys and gorillas. So perhaps Ebola is performing a good action by warning us of the ecological imbalance we are creating. The innocent often are the ones to die in these outbreaks, but there is no doubt that we encountered Ebola, it didn't chase us.

There are so many aspects of this issue. Animals live the lives they were created to live so they would be spiritually fulfilled if living authentically is the criteria.
Classical/traditional Theology views things from a certain mindset. All conclusions have to fit into that box. It already doesn't work because the world is more complex than they realized and science has expanded our knowledge in ways they didn't anticipate.

The earth was seen as the center of the universe. There was a real problem when they found out that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

We seem to have the right Pope for this age. He is going to open up our thinking. The animals going to heaven is just a piece of it. Theology that doesn't fit reality is not going to work. Theology has to be adjusted to fit what is really happening.

Even the Flat Earth Society gave up and disbanded.

I will be interested to see what the Pope actually said and I can't wait to see where this all ends up.

Is it really heaven if all the little creatures I have loved are not there?

[LPC]

I still have not received any reply from either the Vatican Press Office or the two newspapers which originally published the articles by the freelance reporter, Hannah Roberts. This is despite reminder follow-up e-mails. I suspect that the issue is so sensitive with some Catholics that it is controversial for them and they are taking their time with confirming the actual words of the Pope.

Like you, Tobi, I feel no need to belong to any organised religion. Some so-called religious people feel free to behead thousands of animals in one go (see our threads about Gadhimai), to wear fur coats of animals that have been skinned alive (see threads about the fur trade), to bleed animals to death without any stunning and so on.

Where we go on the astral is decided by what we do, whether we act with love and compassion for all creatures, how we conduct ourselves in this life. Yes, we all make mistakes in life (which religious people call "sins"), but the important thing is to regret them with complete sincerity and learn from them. Just as it is essential to forgive others, we need to learn to forgive ourselves as well. That is sometimes harder than forgiving others!

We all naturally pass to the level of the astral which is right for us. We are not "judged"; we just go to the right level which suits us. What is natural and simple - such as the Pope's recent declaration - is made unnecessarily complicated by some religious people. "Paradise is open to all God’s creatures"? I'll settle for that!

Just as it took many centuries for us to accept that the earth is not the centre of this universe, so we will eventually learn that passing over is a natural event and just part of the continuum of life.

[Catherine]

Quote:I still have not received any reply from either the Vatican Press Office or the two newspapers which originally published the articles by the freelance reporter, Hannah Roberts. This is despite reminder follow-up e-mails. I suspect that the issue is so sensitive with some Catholics that it is controversial for them and they are taking their time with confirming the actual words of the Pope.

Remember they are running on Vatican Time, so expect a reply somewhere around the time of the next ice age.

I think we run into problems because people want to define things in great detail. We don't have any details at all so we make big things out of the little we know and we try to use "logic" to come up with answers. Remember that classical theology relied heavily of Descartes.
We have already talked about him. When you think of his methods, how can you rely on his conclusions.

Some things cannot be "thought through". Sometimes you just have to have a bit of unknowing and mystery. Heaven is a mystery.

The Catholic Church believes in Baptism. It was considered a precondition for admission to Heaven. Animals don't get Baptized so therefore how can they go to Heaven. This is a strong enough view that the issue of newborns who die before baptism creates a problem How can they go to Heaven they are not Baptized. How can they go to Hell, they are innocent. So there must be a place for them. They thought it up, called it Limbo and centuries of mothers of dead newborns have suffered grief because they were told they would not see their lost children again.
Pope Benedict declared that there is no basis for Limbo. It does not exist. So in a way he opened the door for animals to go to heaven. If unbaptized newborns get in, then there is room for Fido and Fluffy.
This is a bad case of over thinking an issue.

But people wanted concise answers about mysteries. That is why they belong to organized religions. They want someone to feed them answers. I belong to the Church, but I joined as an adult and I think it was for very different reasons. I find the organized part has always been a bit difficult for me.

God and any relationship we have to God should be very simple. I am in a thinking it through phase again. I need to clear some "fluff" from my soul so I can feel connected to the essentials. Pope Francis is exactly what I prayed for. We needed a breath of fresh air and he is definitely opening windows and doors.
Heaven is big enough for all of us. Since God created the world, then God is big enough to handle all of us in creation and all our passing over how ever it actually happens.

I am sure the subject will generate numerous theology books. Let us hope they are E text books or the deforestation might bring on a global warming crisis.

[LPC]

Great post, Catherine! Pope Francis has moved the Catholic Church a long way already.

[Catherine]

Pope Francis is definitely opening thing ups. He is wanting to include people rather than exclude them. I think this is the essential message of Christianity. There is room for everyone. There is certainly room for the imperfect, which we all are.

When you think about dogs and what great creatures they are, they just might be the best people in heaven.

Nothing will happen suddenly, but new ideas will gradually work their way through the whole church. It would do a lot for animals if we see them as spiritual beings. It will clearly be wrong to treat animals the way we do. If change for the better happens in Catholic countries it will have an effect on other countries.

Pope Francis may go down in history as the greatest pope ever. He is a quiet unassuming man, but he always looks happy and he refuses to be caught up in the externals. He still manages to live humbly and simply like a real person. My favourite story is about the day after his election as pope. He went out by himself and paid his hotel bill. He knew they would never send a bill to the newly elected pope and he knew that they needed to be paid.
It fits that he believes that our animal friends will be in heaven with us.

There are more articles:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-f...ls-131124/

http://time.com/3631242/pope-francis-dog...ic-church/

http://www.boston.com/news/opinion/2014/...story.html

I am sure there will be many more articles in the days ahead.