Domestication vs. taming

[Catherine]

I found an interesting article that talks about our relationships to animals. It states that we have tamed some animals for our use, but we have actually domesticated others. In particular we have domesticated cats and dogs.


http://news.google.ca/news/url?sr=1&ct2=...t=2&at=dt0


There is some good material about the ancestors of cats and dogs. I am not sure I agree with how it happened. I think dogs decided to join packs with us and maybe we decided to join  packs with them. It was to the advantage of both of us. They have hunting skills we don't. We were able to provide better shelter.  Certainly once we had fire we became a good choice of companion.

Cats looked at us and how we live and decided we were useful. They still think we are useful or they would leave.

Guinea pigs and hamsters are domesticated as well. They certainly aren't tamed to do work for us. Although my guinea pigs will clean up a vegetable spill should one ever happen.

I think some species are happy to live with us and have been willing to move into our more comfortable surroundings.
I certainly don't think we coerced any of our usual pets into being pets.
Some of the animals we have tamed for our use is another matter. We are doing more than using some of them. Some we are actively exploiting.

I do agree that not all animals can be domesticated.

[LPC]

(11-10-2016, 03:47 PM)Catherine Wrote: Although my guinea pigs will clean up a vegetable spill should one ever happen.

Ha, ha, ha! Love it!     Rotating LOL

Yes, there are subtle differences between tamed animals and domesticated ones, but the edges are often blurred. Foxes, for example, have sometimes been kept from the wild and then kept as very affectionate pets. See:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/pets/news-fea...-thinks-so
and
http://flashmanfoxes.webs.com/apps/faq/#anchor-93174-6

[Tobi]

(11-10-2016, 03:47 PM)Catherine Wrote: I do agree that not all animals can be domesticated.

That's true. People make that mistake with wolves and wolf hybrids. They get a being who was never meant to fit into our lives. We should either learn to fit into theirs or leave them in sanctuaries, or in the wild.
Wolves cannot be 'domesticated' to a 'western-style life' and be treated as 'pets'. Even if they are sweet Souls and love humans. There will always be some disharmony and much misunderstanding, except in rare cases. And those cases are often when the human goes at least half-way to fulfilling their needs, or lives a pretty wild life anyway.

However a good exception is the "Pye Dogs" of Asia...who are also known as "Pariah Dogs" in India. These originate from wild stock, yet are quite happy to live with people and are good natured.
This is such an interesting subject, I might make a special post about those lovely dogs soon.

Yes there have been cases of wild animals occasionally, who were rescued as babies, and brought up by people, who have learned to fit into a happy life in a house and garden, and being taken for walks! As LPC says, there are cases of foxes who have been very happy living with humans.
But we always need to respect their special needs.

[LPC]

Yes, thank you, Tobi, I was only mentioning that the edges can be be a bit blurred sometimes between tamed and domesticated. I quite agree about wolves beings creatures of the wild. The same goes for many wild animals.

When you have time to post about them, I would like to read about "pye dogs". I have not heard of them.

[Catherine]

I would like to hear about the  Pye Dogs. I am unfamiliar with them.

I think foxes are one of those borderline animals that can be tamed and perhaps domesticated. It must make a difference how young the animal is when you get it. Also a pet fox in the country might work, but I doubt a fox would do well in a high rise.
When I think about it some species would only work as pets if we partly live in their world. Maybe we are their pet.
Wolves will live with us, but we have to be almost as wild as the wolf.  When you think of all the different dog choices, why would you need to get a wolf unless it was a rescue.

There are so many pet choices. I have never understood why people want a non pet species. It seldom works in the long run. Tigers and lions are not meant to be pets. There at lots of beautiful cats out there.

Trying to have a pet chimp or some kind of monkey is just foolish. They are strong and intelligent and they will not act like a pet when they grow up. It usually ends badly.

I think the animals that have become our pets probably came to us in the first place.

[LPC]

I don't approve with all the methods used (especially killing the foxes for fur in the early days of the project), but here is an interesting article about the scientist Belyaev and his domestication of foxes:
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160912-...-the-world

[Tobi]

Well I knew a woman who bred wolf dogs. I got to know a young female wolf dog. She was very lovely and sweet natured and loved people. But I could see from the first instance that her character was not like a dog.And she was kept in a large pen. This was a very pleasant place but it wasn't right. When I sat with her I definitely sensed that she was only expressing 10% of her natural energy and was missing the rest. There was nothing I could do. I would have happily taken her out for a 3-hour run, but was scared she'd not listen to me or that she might run off. And I had Misty with me at the time so there was no way I could have bought her and tried to do my best for her. When Misty got the scent of her on me it upset her for some reason. I know they would never have been able to share a home peacefully, or even a walk.

I know the wolf dogs were sold to people who either wanted to breed from them, or who had a romantic notion about 'getting close to the wild', or what they would look like walking a 'Timber Wolf' (as she looked like one). I prayed she would find a happy place with someone who understood.

Yes Catherine, keeping a Chimp as a pet can sometimes end badly. I'm not saying they all will, as relationships are all different, but I think that sometimes humans don't understand how these animals 'tick'.

Thanks for the link about the foxes LPC! It's so interesting.

I'll gather up some info about the Pye Dogs/Pariah dogs and post it soon.

[Catherine]

That is an interesting article about the domesticated foxes.  It fits how I pictured domestication of other animals happening.

Back in prehistory when we were just starting to live with animals we would have kept the friendlier ones. The wild ones would have left us. Each generation would have been tamer and more suited to life with humans. I think the selection was on both sides. We wanted to keep the friendly ones and the friendly ones wanted to be with us. We were becoming more domesticated too so the taming was multi species at the same time. I think dogs and cats have grown with us as we have grown more civilized.

They have been able to imitate the process with foxes, but I wonder what will happen to the foxes now. They trust us and are dependent on us. We owe them a good life because we created them in the first place.

Quote:I know the wolf dogs were sold to people who either wanted to breed from them, or who had a romantic notion about 'getting close to the wild', or what they would look like walking a 'Timber Wolf' (as she looked like one). I prayed she would find a happy place with someone who understood.

I could picture Misty not liking a wolf dog. She would sense the wildness of the dog. Breeding them doesn't seem like a good idea. They are not happy in captivity. They just tolerate it.
It is a silly romantic notion, thinking that you can run with a wolf companion. They are still a wild animal and few of them are happy in captivity. Even the word captivity says it all.

Domestic animals are not captive. They live with us. That is why it is so very cruel to dump a domestic animal in the wild.
We have obligations to domestic animals.

[Tobi]

Yes I hope those foxes and their descendants will be treated with kindness and compassion. To make money they have been selling the foxes as pets, so let's hope that continues successfully....
I feel very sorry for the ones who didn't quite 'make the grade' in the breeding program though. Any vestige of their natural Selves, and they were made into fur coats. Sad. But of course in Soviet Russia, the only thing that could keep the project running was the fact that it was basically a fur farm.

However the experiments do show that it doesn't take many generations to breed a domestic animal from a wild one with selective breeding. It's fascinating.

Misty was a dog who was Alpha, in a very gentle way but an Alpha type nevertheless. She tolerated no nonsense and would put other dogs in their place. Many people on walks came up to us for her to teach their wayward pups a lesson! One person said his pup had never behaved badly with another dog again since Misty taught it a lesson! It was good that he understood. She was not aggressive, just had a motherliness which was tough love sometimes.
She would not have happily shared space with that female wolf dog. There would have been ructions.

[Catherine]

I can see how Misty was an alpha female. It is just the type of personality she had. She assumed authority. That is why she would automatically teach a young dog its place.  She could have run her own dog training course.

There would be no way a wolf dog and a dominate dog like Misty could ever share space. There is only room for one alpha in the pack.

I would worry about those foxes. Unless they can make good money selling them they will all end up as fur coats. I suspect any that are not as tame or not as cute, will also end up as coats.  It is sad. Those foxes didn't ask for what was done to them.

I still think some animals would not become tame no matter what we do. Foxes were partway there anyhow. All we did was work with their tendency towards tameness.