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Live or Die Tests at animal shelters
#1
Animal shelters assess dogs and give them a set of tests to determine if they are aggressive or safe for adoption. These are essentially "live or die" tests. A dog that fails is all too often euthanized without being given another chance.
I will let you read the details of the tests in the article.
Too much is resting on the results of tests that have not proven to be an actual indicator of a dogs behavior in real life.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/scien...tests.html

It is horrible to think of how many dogs have died because under a stressful shelter situation they failed to pass some random "test". Just because a stressed dog bit a strange plastic hand that threatened his food doesn't mean he would bite a human.

The developers of the tests no longer believe in them. 
We like things simple and neat, but dog behavior is very complex. No simple set of tests could possibly give accurate results. 
It is sad that animals have died because of this. 
If I had a hand in developing the tests I would feel responsible for every dog who died because of them. Dogs have actually passed the tests and then done aggressive things later in a home setting. The tests give shelter workers a false sense of how safe a dog is. If it passed the tests, I wonder if they continue to observe the behavior enough to note signs that a dog does have an aggression problem.

I don't advocate killing a dog because of aggression, but it would not be a good pet for people with children.
Common sense and good observation might be better tools than what is being done now.
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Catherine

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#2
Well, Forgy probably wouldn't be with us now if the refuge in France (fortunately very rural and non-sophisticated) had used such tests. He doesn't bite, but growls loudly if anyone apart from me touches his food bowl whilst he is eating. He also barks and growls a lot at other male dogs he meets in the street (but not females - he loves them, haha!). Yet he is the most affectionate and loving dog with us.

Dogs protecting their food is a basic behaviour, which comes from their genetic history when they were wild and had to fight for food. As a child, I was warned and quickly learned never to touch a dog's food whilst s/he is eating.

The tests seem contrived and artificial. A plastic hand could even be confused for a toy.

From your article, Catherine:
“During the most stressful time of a dog’s life, you’re exposing it to deliberate attempts to provoke a reaction,” Dr. Patronek said. “And then the dog does something it wouldn’t do in a family situation. So you euthanize it?”

That sums it up very well.
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#3
I hate those tests. They produce false results but the hearbreaking thing is yes they are 'live or die' tests.
They have been performing these flawed tests for years.

I agree with every word you said Catherine.

And yes, LPC. Misty also was protective of her food. I could do what I liked with it but rarely did. I left her to eat in peace. But she wouldn't have liked someone else messing with her food bowl, or another dog going anywhere near it. She once set on a friend's female dog for just glancing at the place by the kitchen table where she ate her food! It was not a bloody battle, just a chastisement to warn the dog off that area.
She wouldn't have stood a chance in that live-or-die shelter test. What a waste to the world that would have been!

It is seriously chilling and unfair. Something should change.
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#4
I am hoping that shelters are starting to see their mistakes and find other ways to assess a dog.
Moving away from a "kill shelter" mentality will help. When you are committed to keeping a dog alive you will look for signs of  hope and not try to force aggression.

I think the tests are done to deliberately provoke a dog. A normal response of a growl when food is threatened seems right to me.
I would worry more about a dog that seems too passive. Maybe the seemingly peaceful dog is building up resentment and some day he will blow up.

The tests would be popular because untrained staff could follow the book and assess animals even though they are in no way qualified to make such an important decision. I bet it is the less experienced, less trained people who will try to cling to the tests.

I hope they stop killing dogs based on a test. No dog should die because it protects its food. No dog should die because they find shelter life stressful. We need to be more reasonable.
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Catherine

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#5
I found another article on the subject of tests.  This one has a video explaining the tests to people who would be using them.
The people making the video  sound like they have absolute confidence in their methods. 

https://www.mnn.com/family/pets/stories/...us-to-live

Having seen how they assess dogs I am amazed that any dogs pass the tests ever. When they are handling the animals and pulling at their skin I can see why a dog would react. It would feel unpleasant. The plastic hand grabbing the food dish is a bit strange looking. 
The tests are odd and the people recommending them are over confident. They have that over confidence that people get when they have a little knowledge. They don't know enough to know that they don't know enough.

You see that kind of behavior with a lot of different things. A person watches one nature documentary and they think they are an expert. They are willing to explain to you in great detail, something they know very little about. 
When you do start to know something you approach a subject more carefully. 

It is sad that people fell for their video and placed their confidence in it.
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Catherine

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#6
(08-03-2017, 03:35 PM)Catherine Wrote: They have that over confidence that people get when they have a little knowledge. They don't know enough to know that they don't know enough.

You see that kind of behavior with a lot of different things. A person watches one nature documentary and they think they are an expert. They are willing to explain to you in great detail, something they know very little about. 
When you do start to know something you approach a subject more carefully. 

Very very true Catherine. This testing is the absolute opposite to being 'holistic'....that is bearing the whole personality in mind.
A dog might behave in a food-aggressive way only in certain circumstances and not in others, which could be managed by those who love that dog enough. When a dog is in extreme stress it cannot stand being poked and prodded. WE would probably snap if we were in a highly stressful situation and someone started pinching and poking us! Yet at more relaxed times, such a thing might be viewed as play.

This whole 'testing' thing is heartless, and not very well thought out.

They don't have time, is what it probably boils down to. They don't have time or inclination to get to know the characters of those dogs. It's a conveyor-belt system. In....then out (either to euthanasia or adoption) I don't know how these people sleep at night.
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#7
Quote:They don't have time, is what it probably boils down to. They don't have time or inclination to get to know the characters of those dogs. It's a conveyor-belt system. In....then out (either to euthanasia or adoption) I don't know how these people sleep at night.
They sleep because they have such confidence in what they are doing. They totally believe what they are saying. They need a conveyor belt system and they fully believe that it works.

The way they were pulling at the skin of the corgi would be enough to make the calmest of dogs react. I wouldn't put up with that and neither should a dog.
I don't understand the food aggression issue. Why would you touch the food dish of a dog that is eating. I wouldn't put up with it and neither should a dog. I can't think of any reason why you would feed a dog then snatch the food away from it.

I know they are trying to sort out which dogs are safe as pets and which ones would be aggressive and possibly dangerous.
The need to assess and make judgements is real. I wouldn't send the corgi out as a pet for small children. I don't think it would be happy. Just observing the dogs and watching how they cope with shelter life would give you a better sense of their natures.

Dogs that don't cope with shelter life can be sent to foster homes where they can be observed better and can settle down and be less stressed.
We should have grown way past the over simplified testing methods. No shelter should be doing that any more, but I bet many of them do.
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Catherine

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#8
Another unrealistic expectation which seems to be very prevalent these days is people are somehow expecting their dogs to be Angels. Cute sweet little fur-babies. Instead, they get a dog. Dogs are descended from Wolves! Even the tiny dogs -some smaller than the average cat -that look nothing like Wolves!
In a Wolf pack, the rule of law is keeping everything steady. That's how they survive and flourish. Chastisements are common. So is food aggression. Actually, with a Wolf, it ISN'T food aggression, it is a language which helps keep things ordered and stable. Yes of course, in a Wolf pack, all defer to their leaders. And it is up to humans who companion dogs to show them by good example that they are, in effect, their 'leaders' (in this world of human stuff anyway). That can be done gently and with respect.

But when people imagine that a dog is a fur-baby, that means those who adopt dogs already have unrealistic expectations. The dog is expected to be perfect -in a human's romanticised view -WAY beyond what we expect of others of our own species. There is little room for the natural Self of that dog. Bearing in mind of course that the human companion would be a Guide and good leader, and not encourage negative behaviour.

Some dogs of course are naturally gentle and polite to start with!

I know it isn't fair to generalise, and I know to some extent I'm doing that. Not everyone thinks and feels that way, I realise. But I do wonder about peoples' expectations, and the pressures that puts Shelters under when it comes to adoption.

Anyone who knows dogs knows that generally a Corgi is not the best choice if they have little children. Many dogs don't actually much like little children! Corgis are Cattle dogs, bred with characters who like to nip at the heels of moving cows! Fine if you know dogs....less so if a 'fur-baby' is required.
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#9
Quote:I know it isn't fair to generalise, and I know to some extent I'm doing that. Not everyone thinks and feels that way, I realise. But I do wonder about peoples' expectations, and the pressures that puts Shelters under when it comes to adoption.

This is very much part of the problem. People expect too much. They really want an animated toy, not a real dog. Shelters get caught up in that. They expect dogs to act a certain way. That is why they test them.

Maybe we need classes on what a dog really is and what behavior to expect from a dog.  Most of the dogs who fail these tests are not really aggressive dogs. Sadly there are dogs that are aggressive. Those dogs just don't belong in a home as a pet. They need to be cared for safely in a different setting.

The rest of the dogs would do alright if they received a little help from us their pack leaders. We need to be the leader and teach the dog how to act. Most dogs would learn very quickly.

There should be some kind of understanding around food. Don't touch someone else's food, people or dog. No one wants their food touched.
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Catherine

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